Arch Not Seeing Field in Picture Format

[rgvhorn80]

Sometimes people can’t accept the truth on here. The whole team didn’t play well Saturday. Arch included. I’d bet he’d tell you that too.

[FootLaw]

11 minutes ago, harveycmd said:

I don't get this. Arch is much better at avoiding sacks than most. He misses throws. He makes throws. Defense screwed us against Florida. What do you want?

In complete fairness, he's not completely wrong or right. Arch is definitely not progressing fast enough through check downs and releasing the ball earlier. I'm sure he understands this and doesn't love the struggles. That said, Arch is also not solely to blame for the fiasco we are witnessing. Our line play on both sides of the ball is very underwhelming thus far. Hard to work your reads when you're running for your life.

Sark needs to adjust the offense and make it similar to early QE. QE did some damage through the air and Arch has a better scrambling ability to capitalize on space given. My hope is we'll see more short-intermediate shots on Saturday.

[Here for the Wins]

27 minutes ago, rgvhorn80 said:

He’s not seeing the field well. He is missing wide open WRs in addition to not having time to throw at times. 

Did Quinn see the field well when we scored 17 against the Aggies, 20 against the Pigs, 14 against the Buckeyes?  It’s been referenced or implicated that 3rd year guys are better.  In those games we ran incredibly well versus the Aggies, decent against the Pigs, not so good against OSU.  And surprisingly the worst run game of those 3 resulted in the fewest points.  Probably had the most pressure too.

People are stumbling over themselves to be seen and to profit.  Hot and over the top takes is the theme of the day.

Can you explain to me what seeing the field looks like because ultimately it has to result in points as that is your objective?  And even as many passes as he’s thrown Murray needs to know what coverages we prepared for and what coverages did we actually get.

There is absolutely a lack of honesty or understanding.  And that screen play to Endries is a perfect example.  Arch evaluated the risk and adjusted his actions based on that.  It’s not even worth critique much less the criticism that some put upon it.  He actually gave his team a chance.  It just didn’t work out.

 

 

[Oldest Horn]

Imagine using still photos to critique field of vision. It’s almost like someone is desperate to drive home their narrative. 

[DanielOnorato]

11 minutes ago, Here for the Wins said:

Did Quinn see the field well when we scored 17 against the Aggies, 20 against the Pigs, 14 against the Buckeyes?  It’s been referenced or implicated that 3rd year guys are better.  In those games we ran incredibly well versus the Aggies, decent against the Pigs, not so good against OSU.  And surprisingly the worst run game of those 3 resulted in the fewest points.  Probably had the most pressure too.

People are stumbling over themselves to be seen and to profit.  Hot and over the top takes is the theme of the day.

Can you explain to me what seeing the field looks like because ultimately it has to result in points as that is your objective?  And even as many passes as he’s thrown Murray needs to know what coverages we prepared for and what coverages did we actually get.

There is absolutely a lack of honesty or understanding.  And that screen play to Endries is a perfect example.  Arch evaluated the risk and adjusted his actions based on that.  It’s not even worth critique much less the criticism that some put upon it.  He actually gave his team a chance.  It just didn’t work out.

 

 

For me it's less about Quinn, this is about Arch and more or less seeing the same struggles and troubles that weren't just against Florida but showed up for an 11-25 passing performance vs UTEP. I've voiced my concerns and what I think is necessary to improve moving forward which is mistaken for QB bashing. I'll keep my mouth shut moving forward for the echo chamber but all criticisms I've pointed to can be fixed and will be but they aren't hateful, trolling or in bad faith. 

Arch will get it and the upside is tremendous as I love the kid but he has missed gimme throws and has struggled to read the field undoubtedly. 

Edited 9 hours ago by DanielOnorato

[Neil Leininger]

54 minutes ago, Here for the Wins said:

Did Quinn see the field well when we scored 17 against the Aggies, 20 against the Pigs, 14 against the Buckeyes?  It’s been referenced or implicated that 3rd year guys are better.  In those games we ran incredibly well versus the Aggies, decent against the Pigs, not so good against OSU.  And surprisingly the worst run game of those 3 resulted in the fewest points.  Probably had the most pressure too.

People are stumbling over themselves to be seen and to profit.  Hot and over the top takes is the theme of the day.

Can you explain to me what seeing the field looks like because ultimately it has to result in points as that is your objective?  And even as many passes as he’s thrown Murray needs to know what coverages we prepared for and what coverages did we actually get.

There is absolutely a lack of honesty or understanding.  And that screen play to Endries is a perfect example.  Arch evaluated the risk and adjusted his actions based on that.  It’s not even worth critique much less the criticism that some put upon it.  He actually gave his team a chance.  It just didn’t work out.

Nope. which is why there were plenty talking about Ewers holding the team back last year. I expect QBs that want to have legitimate NFL careers to be able to figure things out in year three of the same system. There is a reason why this team struggles to score points in the SEC and a lot of those struggles is due to our mid QB play the past 2 seasons. Don't give the game reps excuse either. Mac Jones had this offense humming in his first year as QB1. There is no reason Manning shouldn't be picking up the coverages post snap and throwing to wide open guys.

[Here for the Wins]

1 minute ago, DanielOnorato said:

For me it's less about Quinn, this is about Arch and more or less seeing the same struggles and troubles that weren't just against Florida but showed up for an 11-25 passing performance vs UTEP. I've voiced my concerns and what I think is necessary to improve moving forward which is mistaken for QB bashing. I'll keep my mouth shut moving forward for the echo chamber but all criticisms I've pointed to can be fixed and will be but they aren't hateful, trolling or in bad faith. 

Arch will get it and the upside is tremendous as I love the kid but he has missed gimme throws and has struggled to read the field undoubtedly. 

Quinn was merely a comparison for individual performances and production.  As I’ve quoted Beck stats versus UF.  Poor numbers versus UF, dominating versus all others.  Incredibly experienced guys.  Again a comparison.

There’s little about the UTEP game compared to this one.  The pressure from UF was tremendous.  We started with more of a pass emphasis.  UTEP was a heavy run game emphasis.  And contrary to public opinion, it had little to do with Arch on its face.  There was no rotation on the Oline for the first time this year.  They played the whole game other than Hutson getting hurt.  All indicative that the emphasis was on the run on the game that week.  There was an extensive usage of backup skill guys, several of whom who had played very little to that point.  He threw 2 passes beyond 20 yards versus UTEP.  His average depth of target versus UF was 20 yards with a stated gameplan of attacking downfield, indicating they practiced that all week.  From game 1 of 2024 up until now, the 1st quarter run-pass ratio had 1 true outlier in favor of run over pass - UTEP.

Sure.  He’s missed throws.  Sure he’s missed guys. It’s ignoring what Ohio State and UF have done to other guys.  And Arch was on the road with mediocre pass protection at best and a run game that couldn’t punch it in either.  LSU got 13 offensive points off 5 interceptions and the D scored 7.

This narrative regarding Arch infers that it’s unique to him and beyond what happens to others.   Sark has stated more than once teams show us different looks than what we see on tape.  That could be the case versus say an OSU or a UF.  When it’s stated “I’m not sure what he’s doing,” in these “honest” evaluations, the discussion is limited when you cannot discuss or don’t discuss what he prepared to see versus what he got.  I certainly don’t have that information and assume many do not either.

The biggest thing is we need him to finish the big end of game drives.  He needs to learn that from Vince, Colt and Sam.

[Here for the Wins]

1 hour ago, Neil Leininger said:

Nope. which is why there were plenty talking about Ewers holding the team back last year. I expect QBs that want to have legitimate NFL careers to be able to figure things out in year three of the same system. There is a reason why this team struggles to score points in the SEC and a lot of those struggles is due to our mid QB play the past 2 seasons. Don't give the game reps excuse either. Mac Jones had this offense humming in his first year as QB1. There is no reason Manning shouldn't be picking up the coverages post snap and throwing to wide open guys.

Was it 4 first round WRs?  A first round RB that averaged almost 6 per carry?  Going against defenses that missed spring and summer workouts?  Sure, make comparisons to anomaly.  Jones at Bama, Burrow at LSU are not normal seasons.  Those are exceptions to the rule.

[Hashtag]

12 minutes ago, Here for the Wins said:

Was it 4 first round WRs?  A first round RB that averaged almost 6 per carry?  Going against defenses that missed spring and summer workouts?  Sure, make comparisons to anomaly.  Jones at Bama, Burrow at LSU are not normal seasons.  Those are exceptions to the rule.

Talent level of skill guys doesn’t have much bearing on a QB making the right decision on a read or knowing where mismatches are pre snap. Arch could have all those same guys but it wouldn’t matter because he’s not seeing the field well and not making the right reads while forcing passes deep. Sure it makes it a little easier for deep ball but when that’s covered and he throws into double coverage instead of Ruggs underneath wide open or Najee on a check down it doesn’t matter. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Hashtag

[AusMOJO]

6 hours ago, Neil Leininger said:

He's playing like a QB that has no confidence in his OL + he just doesn't see the field + he can't read defenses at a level that a 3rd year QB should be able to read. Murray's video was pretty much spot on. The OL played horrible, but Arch had plenty of chances to put more than 21 points on the board. This is just going to be a frustrating season because Arch needs to be playing a much higher level to make up for the OL because they can't guarantee consistent protection or a running game to take pressure off.

I might have to check out this video then. 

[AusMOJO]

4 hours ago, DanielOnorato said:

For me it's less about Quinn, this is about Arch and more or less seeing the same struggles and troubles that weren't just against Florida but showed up for an 11-25 passing performance vs UTEP. I've voiced my concerns and what I think is necessary to improve moving forward which is mistaken for QB bashing. I'll keep my mouth shut moving forward for the echo chamber but all criticisms I've pointed to can be fixed and will be but they aren't hateful, trolling or in bad faith. 

Arch will get it and the upside is tremendous as I love the kid but he has missed gimme throws and has struggled to read the field undoubtedly. 

Nah, don't keep your mouth shut. You've got just as much right as anyone else here to share your opinion. 

[Tommy]

22 hours ago, Here for the Wins said:

He’s a moron.

On that screen, there was a guy in the first window, a guy in the second window too.  In all his arrogance, he tells me it's to be thrown immediately until I show him the screenshot with two guys squeezing Endries in that window so then he says the 2nd window is open and that the defender is too locked leg to the play.  The absolute risk is a tip and pick.  His actions were completely reasonable.

So every time you get a screenshot, every defenders reaction is based on the action to the point.  If a QBs head, shoulders and feet are down the middle of the field, then certainly in a non-man coverage situation, the defender will act accordingly.  So, if that Qb shifts to the right flat, like in the Endries Ohio State shot, then defenders will begin to move so 15 yards of space when the QB is not ready to throw and has to throw it 30 yards, the pass catcher has to catch, turn and run isn’t as open as he appears.  

And sure, that curl right, imagine the corners reaction when he sees those shoulders and hips turning that way.  He has help deep, he has help to the inside.  There’s no threat underneath.  It is entirely possible the QB identified that early and went to the other side of the field because the numbers were more advantageous.

The last one before the screen.  If that’s the play I think it is, there is a similar if not identical to the right.  There’s absolutely no way to know which side will be open initially.  But you can imagine that a right handed QB may look right first.

You can pretty much do this all day, every day on zone coverage.  There will always be missed QB opportunities.  And you’re pretty much a moron if you think on 5 man routes the QB will find the first man open or the only man open every time.

thank you for this! I never really paid much attention to FB breakdowns until 2022. Learning new things every day. 

[Here for the Wins]

19 minutes ago, Tommy said:

thank you for this! I never really paid much attention to FB breakdowns until 2022. Learning new things every day. 

You’re my boy blue.  You didn’t ask, but I’ll share a bit my background on why I am the way I am with my message board persona.  I’m old and bitter, just not as old or as bitter as some around here.  My sports experience that forms my beliefs and thoughts here is varied and quite unique.   You won’t find many here, if any, more unique.  That’ll offend some feelings here by the mere suggestion.  That’s often more found in the disappointment than success. Successes, failures, observations and reflections.  
 

Those experiences tell me that all of us, even professionals turned analysts, YouTube wizards, whatever, are wrong quite often.  Peoples “feel” or “eye tests” are pretty weak and surprisingly cannot be supported.  Then when presented with contrary data, they go silent often.  At the same time there’s a lot to be learned from many sources and the accumulation of that information begins to add up.

Think I’ll go watch some Coach Dan Casey for some cool plays.
 

 

[Ace_Rothstein]

23 hours ago, Here for the Wins said:

He’s a moron.

On that screen, there was a guy in the first window, a guy in the second window too.  In all his arrogance, he tells me it's to be thrown immediately until I show him the screenshot with two guys squeezing Endries in that window so then he says the 2nd window is open and that the defender is too locked leg to the play.  The absolute risk is a tip and pick.  His actions were completely reasonable.

So every time you get a screenshot, every defenders reaction is based on the action to the point.  If a QBs head, shoulders and feet are down the middle of the field, then certainly in a non-man coverage situation, the defender will act accordingly.  So, if that Qb shifts to the right flat, like in the Endries Ohio State shot, then defenders will begin to move so 15 yards of space when the QB is not ready to throw and has to throw it 30 yards, the pass catcher has to catch, turn and run isn’t as open as he appears.  

And sure, that curl right, imagine the corners reaction when he sees those shoulders and hips turning that way.  He has help deep, he has help to the inside.  There’s no threat underneath.  It is entirely possible the QB identified that early and went to the other side of the field because the numbers were more advantageous.

The last one before the screen.  If that’s the play I think it is, there is a similar if not identical to the right.  There’s absolutely no way to know which side will be open initially.  But you can imagine that a right handed QB may look right first.

You can pretty much do this all day, every day on zone coverage.  There will always be missed QB opportunities.  And you’re pretty much a moron if you think on 5 man routes the QB will find the first man open or the only man open every time.

On at least one of the plays OP says the curl is “wide open”, the play isn’t that open. In real time I think the defender is passing off the guy he is on to the safety and about to break hard at the guy curling “open” if Arch turns his head and body towards the curl. 

Screenshots can be deceiving. 

Sure, there are some that you’d like Arch to plant his back foot on his drop and let it rip with more anticipation, but some of these are reaches. 

 

[Here for the Wins]

26 minutes ago, Ace_Rothstein said:

On at least one of the plays OP says the curl is “wide open”, the play isn’t that open. In real time I think the defender is passing off the guy he is on to the safety and about to break hard at the guy curling “open” if Arch turns his head and body towards the curl. 

Screenshots can be deceiving. 

Sure, there are some that you’d like Arch to plant his back foot on his drop and let it rip with more anticipation, but some of these are reaches. 

 

There’s no doubt opportunities to make additional plays.  

The Wisner TD is clearly “what are you waiting on” but it should be difficult to complain when the success is the same.  Just last week Bo Nix had back to back red zone plays similar to that in which held it too long.  The Wisner one was more extreme, but it’s not uncommon.

 

[DanielOnorato]

2 hours ago, Here for the Wins said:

You’re my boy blue.  You didn’t ask, but I’ll share a bit my background on why I am the way I am with my message board persona.  I’m old and bitter, just not as old or as bitter as some around here.  My sports experience that forms my beliefs and thoughts here is varied and quite unique.   You won’t find many here, if any, more unique.  That’ll offend some feelings here by the mere suggestion.  That’s often more found in the disappointment than success. Successes, failures, observations and reflections.  
 

Those experiences tell me that all of us, even professionals turned analysts, YouTube wizards, whatever, are wrong quite often.  Peoples “feel” or “eye tests” are pretty weak and surprisingly cannot be supported.  Then when presented with contrary data, they go silent often.  At the same time there’s a lot to be learned from many sources and the accumulation of that information begins to add up.

Think I’ll go watch some Coach Dan Casey for some cool plays.
 

 

So who are you? You've referenced being above many with your ability to kick, pass etc. 

You must be a hall of famer as you critiqued Aaron Murray, an NFL QB for only throwing 62%. What did you throw?

I didn't respond to your response to me because you seem to think 11-25 vs UTEP is acceptable from Arch Manning and I don't. It must be all the coaches fault right?

If you can't agree that simple functions are very complex in this offense it's very difficult to have an honest conversation. 11-25 is horrific for any starting QB. 

Manning is going to be great but he's been asleep at the wheel. We need it now? Is he ready, it's year 3!

Edited 20 minutes ago by DanielOnorato

[DanielOnorato]

12 hours ago, Here for the Wins said:

The one in which he is talking about ripping the post that ends at 3:32.  The one in which the Db is over the top in prime position to break on the ball.

At 7:45, he’s paused it.  He’s yammering about the safety in the middle.  Screenshot below.  That safety is done on a well thrown ball because he and Wingo are even at the 50.  He’s not running faster than Wingo and will have a greater distance to travel.  Undoubtedly, the short route is the top choice, but Wingo had better leverage here than on the previous play.  That safety was outside the hash to start, turns his back to Wingo as he moves to the middle of the field.

So, there’s likely a justified reason for Arch’s actions.  At some point, you’ve passed the point of no return with a heavy pass rush.  I’m thinking rush or not he’s going deep.  It’s certainly a far lower percentage throw, but no one is complaining if there’s 6 on the board.  

You may also have some defensive subtlety too on this particular play.  Murray does mention a time or two that he’s not sure what’s discussed in meetings.  I’ve heard a little about UF running cover 2.  Colleges will run some different coverages and sometimes they blow it, but sometimes it’s not egregious enough to screw up but moreso add confusion to the QB.  He never addresses the coverage (actually he says single high) but it looks as though we’re going deep thirds.  Otherwise, there’s talk of cover 2 and 4.  So, if we’re working all week on cover 2/4, then this is an unexpected variation with pretty quick pressure, that’s part of the equation.

So, explain to us Murray what happens to your eyes, your reads if the defense gives you unexpected looks?  Defenses have evolved a great deal in the last 10 years.  Maybe that didn’t happen much.

Murray clearly knows the position but seems to forget he was a 62% passer with some variation of missed reads, slow reads, pressure that caused him to miss on 38% of his balls.

The context surrounding these discussions is sorely lacking.

Where'd you play? Murray was a good QB had a brutal knee injury in college and still went pro. 

If it's the coaching staff and the entire teams fault, should they replace everyone except Manning? This is a hell of a team without a p4 win heading to Red River. The passing game and running game have both taken a huge step back yet those who hated Quinn and were first to blame the QB won't critique the QB at all now.